Report 542
Report #542 Skillset: Ninjakari Skill: Ninukhi Org: Aquamancers Status: Completed Jan 2011 Furies' Decision: Balance increased. Problem: Ninukhi is a single-target ability which pulls a target from an adjacent room towards the ninjakari user. The trouble herein is that the ability itself has far fewer requirements than comparable room movement skills, requiring the target to only not be sprawled, off-balance, or shielded. It can even be used repeatedly if there is no target in the adjacent room without loss of balance or equilibrium, opening up easy opportunities to drag a victim the moment they walk into the room without providing a chance to take defensive measures against the ability, additionally, it is not blocked by shrine powers as the vast majority of adjacent-room (and hence very little risk) skills are. This combination ends up being excessively unbalancing in group combat where the ability to pull a single target far more reliably than other methods ends up giving an undue advantage in any group standoff. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Add an additional limitation to ninukhi, namely have athletics/beastmastery blocking prevent the yanking of a victim putting it in line with targetted beckon, its closest analog. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Add a 2 second delay from when the chain first snakes into the room till when the victim is actually yanked. Movement from the room, sitting, shielding, or going off-balance/equilibrium/psibalance by the victim in that window of time would prevent the yank from succeeding. Increase the base balance loss for usage of the ability by 1.5 second to maintain the current standard window where the ninjakari must regain balance before initating a first form on the victim. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Change the sprawled condition on ninukhi. Instead of it requiring a victim to be standing, make a sprawled victim be a requirement (meaning other methods of proning such as paralysis, entanglement, frozen, stun, etc would not fulfill this requirement) for the yank to succeed. Player Comments: ---on 1/16 @ 04:16 writes: I like solution 2, it reads like a more desirable version of willowisp. ---on 1/16 @ 07:53 writes: Solution 2 is not going to work. It would make yank completely worthless with one simple sit (only prevented by stun) reflex that would effectively be guaranteed via the 2 second window. I'm thinking this is more of a problem with summon resistences than Ninukhi itself. Other forced movement skills can be "spammed" as well such as room beckon, rad, etc each having their own caveats of advantages and disadvantages so that it can be repeatedly used is a null point. Also, as proned, off balance/eq, walls, and a couple other things stops the yank I don't think any of the suggested solutions are warranted since prone can be achieved instantly by sitting. ---on 1/16 @ 10:08 writes: I agree that Ninukhi needs a way to be toned down without altogether destroying the skill. Solution 2's consideration to add a 2 second delay would be a good step to rein ability in. Though I don't think sitting should stop a yank between initiation and completion, I do think that either moving or being off balance between the start and the end of the yank are solid proposals. Furthermore, I don't agree that it is more an issue with summon resistance than the ability itself, considering even with stronger resistances, the nature of the skill to not only be capable of choosing where a target winds up but be instantaneous -and- be able to function in distort (which negates 90% of the other summons) makes the skill too strong. ---on 1/17 @ 02:48 writes: To quote, "It can even be used repeatedly if there is no target in the adjacent room without loss of balance or equilibrium" As a variation on solution 2, could a 2 second delay be imposed on the Ninjakari IF the ninukhi does not connect with any target in the adjacent room. This measure would at least prevent spamming the command in wait for a target. Not sure this idea goes far enough to balance the skill however. ---on 1/17 @ 07:39 writes: I agree that Ninukhi in its current form is unnessarily powerful. Solution 2 sounds like the best idea and will keep Ninukhi distinct from Beckon. I agree that for solution two, movement, off bal/eq/psi and shield should stop the ninukhi attempt. I don't think sitting should stop the attempt. ---on 1/22 @ 03:28 writes: I'm disappointed in this report. Not only did I indicate that I was willing to review Ninukhi after summoning resistances were fixed, I think it's clear that this report isn't aimed at fixing the skill, but rather killing it. Solution 2, even if excluding the sit stopping the yank, is easily countered. Two seconds is a very long time given how easy it would be to prevent the yank. Systems could react instantly and players could react within 0.25s or less. Shielding, moving, being off bal/eq, or even raising a wall would prevent it, and, with my conservative estimate on reaction time, there would be 1.75s to perform those actions. Frankly, there would be no excuse for being yanked. Wisp, while three seconds, has only two ways to prevent it after it's initiated: moving or no trees. I fail to see how losing one second justifies the ability to prevent it in just about any instance imaginable. Solution 3 entirely kills the skill as the times a person is not off bal/eq and is sprawled in an adjacent room is slim. Solution 1 is the only one that is remotely reasonable, but the report conveniently forgets one important aspect: it fails to emphasize the ease Ninukhi can be prevented. Fewer requirements are justified when one considers how -easy- it is to prevent yourself from being yanked. There's little excuse to be unshielded, standing, and on bal/eq when adjacent to any group. I would support a modified version of solution one if it could hit off eq/bal targets or sprawled targets. ---on 1/22 @ 04:14 writes: Sahmiam, in response to your comments, I have to say: Crow Hoist suffers the same woes that you raise, -while also- requiring being -in the same room- as the target. That said, they are different skills, so some of your points can be valid... except that you go on to say that it is -easy- to avoid getting yanked at which point you lose me. Yank is the most powerful next-door-summon ability in the game, bar none. Send someone in to raze / get them to attack and you can yank to your heart's content. You can just sit there spamming it with your hand on the enter key until someone walks into the room next to you. It works through Distort, no less! It is hands-down better than Beckon, or Rad, or any of these others because you have full control over it. And if the person fights back or tries to defend themselves, they will be yanked. ---on 1/22 @ 06:10 writes: Xenthos, if everyone in the room is sitting, sending in someone to raze will only result in one death: the person going in. It's possible to stack commands, and I'll grant you, it is possible to get lucky and yank someone in that infinitesimal time between the two commands going in. That being said, if people are -attacking-, they are -not- on balance and equilibrium. Furthermore, what you're suggesting is a suicide. With things such as pits, the person won't get to raze before they're stunned or choked or whatever. Working in distortion is a moot point when, in theory, the yank should not be possible. I find the problems mentioned to correspond to incompetence rather than imbalance. ---on 1/22 @ 06:21 writes: In regards to the solution I proposed, yank would be prevented by block in exchange for it working against targets that are sprawled and/or off bal/eq. Not one or the other. ---on 1/22 @ 07:15 writes: If everyone in the room is sitting, how in the world will the razer going in result in their death when the defenders are prone and can't attack? Trying to put up these supposed viable defenses for the skill is not helping the case that is trying to downplay Yank. The fact that in distort, yanks still work whereas 90% of the other group separators don't already favour the ability far too much, let alone the nigh instantaneous nature of the ability to go through. Addressing the instant result of the ability or making it observe a block are two ways to tone down the ability without outright killing it, and I prefer the second solution even if it still leaves it as a more favourable version of Hoist or Wisp. ---on 1/22 @ 11:52 writes: He's not downplaying it or saying it doesn't need to be balanced, Viynain, and soln 2 would make it near worthless and certainly worse than wisp. (What he's saying is that if the target is sitting the rest can kill the razing person. A yank all alias could be made but that would spam the NJ to nil and back) Anyhow, why just make yank attemps cost 1s (heck or even 2s) of balance, and let blocking stop it? No unfettered spam, simple, makes sense for block to stop since it's a physical forced movement ---on 1/22 @ 11:53 writes: Why not just make* typo ---on 1/22 @ 12:26 writes: The act of sitting stopping a delayed summon would indeed kill the skill and I didn't like that bit as I commented earlier. I do still personally hold favour for the second solution (but without the sitting bit), though any consideration to tone the skill down relevantly would be appreciated. ---on 1/22 @ 17:35 writes: Viynain, I submit to you the command STAND. It doesn't consume bal/eq and thus you can stack the command with an action that will take you off bal/eq and prevent the yank. I'm not downplaying the problem, I'm arguing against it by engaging the points brought up. Downplaying would be ignoring the points previously made, and repeat myself. I've countered the distortion point by stating that no one should be yanked to begin with, yet you respond by saying, "It works in distort!" The instantaneous nature can be countered by other instant skills: shielding (requires bal/eq) or sitting (can be done -any- time except when stunned). Furthermore, stating that it's a "more favourable version of Hoist or Wisp" is ludicrous, as I've already stated why it's not. Please don't ignore my points or hand-wave them away and then repeat yourselves. ---on 1/23 @ 18:57 writes: ... uh, it most definitely is a -far- more favourable form of ability than hoist, and even if solution 2 was implemented it still would be. Not having to be in the room with a whole bunch of angry enemies is a pretty darned huge advantage, you know. Especially when Hoist has a time delay and a message that can be used to trigger geyser / whatever. Stating that Hoist is more favourable than yank is absolutely and totally irrefutably ludicrous itself. ---on 1/27 @ 21:26 writes: I would agree with nerfing drag if it were not for a report I submitted a while ago trying to nerf an even more obnoxious skill (Rad) being declared not necessary. I'm sure someone who has access to the only counter, bonds, will try to refute this, but Rad is better than drag despite its random direction because it will work on a target that is sprawled and/or off balance. Why is that such an important distinction? Because when you need to drop your shield to do something (such as attack the kamikaze who walks in to your room to make you attack him and drop shield), it puts you off balance, which will stop drag but not Rad. If it's not necessary to nerf rad, it's not necessary to nerf this. ---on 1/27 @ 23:59 writes: Your claim of Glom having the only counter to rad is disingenuous at best. Considering that most day to day group pvp occurs in an area with either nexus or shrine distort, which, due to constructs (and even before their return) are now more or less instantly distorted the moment anything happens there. This means that rad will never, ever work there and -every- org has access to a counter in the most popular/used form of pvp conflict - raiding/defiling. Bonds covers the times when neither is available, but can you reasonably state that raiding happens less often than raids or revolts? I really doubt it. Needless to say, chaindrag working in such a situation is a huge advantage. Again, the fact that this ability is spammable and always pulls the enemy towards you when it succeeds places it far above any other summon skill in the game. So I still vote for solution 2 with being sprawled (the victim) pulling people anyway. ---on 1/28 @ 07:03 writes: Ninukhi needs a nerf. I feel that Rad also needs a nerf. However, just because Rad did not get nerf, I don't think that this ability should be exempt.